Where did all these flavor notes come from?


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KE
Kevin 🇺🇸 | 78 ratings Author Posted 23 Jan '22

I remember, way back, when rum tasted like pure sugar and depending on age sometimes notes of wood. In the last 20yrs or so I've noticed so many different notes in almost all rum except a few. Chocolate, various fruits, cinnamon, vanilla...... Now, I'm not saying this is bad but can these rums actually be considered authentic? Maybe unique but surely not authentic. So, it seems the rum world is moving in a direction that is giving way to the origins of rum. Is the industry scared of plain & simple which is the basis of rum itself? Some 40yrs ago I visited the Caribbean and sampled much grog from many islands. I distinctly remember the absolute flavor of sugar and sometimes hints of wood. Nothing more, nothing less! I guess rum is also subject to evolution! For better or worse, I guess only time will tell.

CA
Captain Lee 🇺🇸 | 25 ratings Replied 24 Jan '22

Are you talking about rums that are purposefully flavored and labeled as such?  I'm going to hazard a guess and say that the more flavor notes there are in an unadulterated rum, the more likely it is that a rum is "authentic" - ie: made in small batches on a pot still or simple column still.  Much if not most of the rum consumed in the US in the last 50 years is made on an industrial column still, coming off the still at very high proof with few congeners or other "flavors", and then watered down and flavored/sugared to create a reliably stable profile for their brand - think Bacardi, Captain Morgan, Zacapa, etc.  

Many smaller distilleries purposefully use traditional methods to create varied flavor profiles to set them apart from industrial rum producers, and their target audience wants flavorful, interesting rums.  Not sure how to explain your experience of 40 years ago, but "no flavor other than sugar with a touch of wood" is widely available if that is what you're looking for - just look at the cheaper end of the shelves..

KU
kudzey 🇵🇱 | 38 ratings Replied 24 Jan '22

Although it would be a bit expensive now, you can still sample a rum from 40 years ago. These are available in auctions and some collector stores. I have no doubt you will be able to find interesting rums full of different flavors. 

On the other hand, the sugar and maybe wood rums are more than available now, at practically any shop, like Captain Lee said.

I think that what's changed is the size of the quality-oriented market. People want to enjoy a premium spirit, rather than just drink (for this purpose vodka is 3x cheaper here on Poland). It's just important to notice that all these fabulous tastes and flavors are not artificial! Only a skillful distillation (and also maturation but to lower extend) can give rise to them.

KE
Kevin 🇺🇸 | 78 ratings Author Replied 24 Jan '22

I am just surprised at the abundant amount of flavor notes and wonder why most rums 40yrs ago were simply sugar with slight woody notes and maybe some hints of vanilla through the use of bourbon casks.. And how do we really know what is or is not being added. Do we have no choice but to trust the distillers word? For instance, the Dictator 20yr old I really enjoy but how does coffee and chocolate notes arrive in the distilling process? Growing these to plants in high mountains and sugar cane at low levels gives me a need to know how those flavors got into that rum if not by adding to enhance the product. Plantation XO is another one I like but it seems to me that these distillers are making up rules as they go. Many liquors such as vodka state they are "flavored" even Capt. Morgan. I understand the rum industry is pretty much unregulated  so who's to say what really goes on? I do enjoy these flavor notes and was just curious as to the origin of these notes. I find it hard to understand how so many different distilleries doing basically the same distilling can have such different flavors notes. Granted a particular flavor evolves in the distilling process but coffee, chocolate, pineapple, etc? Even though I've been at this on and off for 40yrs I still believe there's more to learn and enjoy! So, that's what I'm  asking. How do these flavors come to being in rum without additives? If it is additives then OK. I just want to know?

KE
Kevin 🇺🇸 | 78 ratings Author Replied 24 Jan '22

So, after a few more grogs I'm wondering if there's more science to this than I thought? How about the place and its surroundings play a role in these notes? Like maybe there's coffee in them there hills and the water from there has run through these coffee plantations and it gets to where the cane grows and infiltrates the soil and hence there's coffee notes in that particular cane. Keeping in mind that sugar is basically sugar until you break it down buy distilling where these quiet notes become dominant. Another thing to keep in mind is that I'm a sailor and not a scientist but hey that sounds damn interesting to me! If there is any logic to this rum influenced theory then maybe Jamica should look twice at those coffee producing "blue mountains". Now that could become world famous rum just like their coffee is!

OdysseusUnbound avatar image
OdysseusUnbound 🇨🇦 | 40 ratings Replied 24 Jan '22

I don't think Jamaica is lacking world famous rum. Distillation leads to the production of various congeners which have a similar chemical composition of other flavour notes. Dictador and Plantation are notorious for "less than honest" marketing and yes, additives. Rum from Jamaica (e.g. Appleton), Barbados (Foursquare/Real McCoy/R.L. Seale, Mount Gay), St. Lucia (e.g.Chairman's Reserve) and others don't use additives yet these rums are quite distinct.

KU
kudzey 🇵🇱 | 38 ratings Replied 24 Jan '22

Dictator actually matures their rum in ex-coffee barrels and they state it clearly. However, you can try El Dorado Skeldon to get a coffee flavor. I think The Lone Caner wrote a post about drinking a raw Skeldon distillate and he noticed some coffee flavor. 

Jamaican rums made this knowledge widely spread, that rums aromas are connected to esters. Flavors are more complicated to explain but it's all in the chemistry of the fermentation (conditions are crucial so It sometimes differs from year to year, even at the same distillery). If something passed through the distillation you simply have it in your glass at the end

vomi1011 avatar image
vomi1011 🇩🇪 | 402 ratings Replied 24 Jan '22

Toasted barrels can bring out notes of chocolate flavors. Overaged rums often have coffee aromas. Dictador certainly have some peculiarities in the manufacturing process, but the rum is not artificial. 

40 years earlier there was not that much high quality rum, most was diluted and not that old. Caroni Felicite Gold was not comparable to Caronis we know today. Rum has evolved a lot and is slowly catching up with whisky. However, in terms of production volumes, it will never catch up with whisky, it's just way too late for that.

KE
Kevin 🇺🇸 | 78 ratings Author Replied 24 Jan '22

OK, to start, Jamacia in my opinion is way behind the best rum curve. Agreed they do have their own style as do others but, unfortunately, they are not the dominating factor concerning premium rum unless you have deep pockets and even then I'm not so sure! I like my theory with the water from the coffe plantation seeping  down into the cane plantations. That sounds realistic but then again I'm a sailor and not a scientist. Hell, who knows if it's  even scientifically legit. I know one fact about coffee and only one. That is, that coffee beans are stored and shipped in burlap sacks, not barrels. And if someone is putting coffee in barrels, who is it that does this? I need to try this coffee immediately. I appreciate the input but to be honest  I'm  more concerned with the science of how these notes are born. I agree that these notes may come from the chemistry " science" but do we really know how this comes about with such unregulated norms?

vomi1011 avatar image
vomi1011 🇩🇪 | 402 ratings Replied 24 Jan '22

The toasting of barrels is not a secret, the effects are known. https://www.everwonderwine.com/blog/2017/5/17/toasting-an-oak-barrel-and-its-affect-on-wine-flavor

Light Toasting - Vanilla, coconut, caramel, clove and cinnamon

Medium Toasting - Vanilla, honey, caramel, toast, coffee, cocoa

Heavy Toasting - Vanilla, espresso, smoke, crème brûlée, butterscotch, toffee, molasses

It is also known how the fruit aromas are created 

https://jameskennedymonash.wordpress.com/2013/12/13/infographic-table-of-esters-and-their-smells/

KE
Kevin 🇺🇸 | 78 ratings Author Replied 24 Jan '22

Vomi & kudzey, Now someone is starting to make some sense out of my question! I think kudzey is on point concerning these mass producers making their own rules, which I totally agree is happening. So, to go a little further regarding Vomi's post. I get your toasting theory. Now, not to go off the rum subject but if this toasting does in fact produce these notes does it also apply to other types of liquor, like scotch. I've never had a scotch that has coffee notes in it, but then I'm not into scotch but I have sampled many different brands of scotch and never found any coffee notes. Very interesting Vomi & kudzey, thanks for that insight and making this post very educational! Cheers!!!

YO
Yohobro 🇨🇦 | 80 ratings Replied 25 Jan '22

As I read the part about Jamaica being behind the rum curve I cringed. Better not say that around any Jamaicans... 

I think like anything, quality and complexity is improving with time. Especially in the last 20 years, we as humans are getting even better at what we do with the addition of technology.

 

As for being into coffee, similar complexity exists in coffee. All kinds of fruit, vanilla, chocolate, etc are tasting notes of craft coffee. Is it so hard to believe these flavours come naturally in rum as well? 

vomi1011 avatar image
vomi1011 🇩🇪 | 402 ratings Replied 25 Jan '22

@Kevin

I think you need to try a single cask that contains the flavors you want. Because even if a cask has been specifically toasted, it can develop differently depending on the wood and external factors. That's why connoisseurs drink single casks most of the time. It is simply more exciting because each cask has its own characteristics.

Rums that taste a bit smoky from the toasting are rare, SBS has an expensive PM Uitvlugt from 1990 where you can even taste the toasting through some smoke or barbecue. This is not the kind of cigarette smoke or ash, this is a kind of campfire smoke.

Since most rums are blended, such barrels are also quickly lost in the mass. A rum that tastes like cocoa for me is, for example, Zaya 12 or Dictador 9.

Much coffee aroma has the Flensburg 1991 KFM developed by overaging. The barrel was probably not replaced in time and the rum was overaged. https://singlecaskrum.com/2020/10/21/enmore-versailles-kfm-1991/

To answer your question, these aromas come from the wood, consequently the aromas are released to all distillates. Wine is also influenced by it. Of course, each type of distillate develops its own variety of aromas in conjunction with these wood aromas. 

White rum never has such aromas, it usually tastes of lime and metallic. 

https://scotchwhisky.com/magazine/ask-the-professor/20468/why-are-whisky-casks-toasted-and-charred/"Lignin is transformed into a wide range of flavours which are slowly released into the spirit throughout maturation, adding in floral elements, spice (cinnamon and clove especially), vanilla, chocolate, fruity elements, and green notes (grassiness, pine). Lignin is also present in the husk of a grain of barley and kilning produces the same range of flavours as are being created during toasting of wood."

KE
Kevin 🇺🇸 | 78 ratings Author Replied 25 Jan '22

Vomi, obviously you are very skilled in the spirits department. I thank you for your sharing of this and have hugely enlightened me.  On my next one door store trip I will seek out a single barrel bottle and would not be surprised due to the awareness you have so kindly put forth. Thanks & please keep it going.

KE
Kevin 🇺🇸 | 78 ratings Author Replied 25 Jan '22

Yohobro, I, myself, cringe when I drink Jamaican rum as well as Barbados rums. I just don't see much more than simple rum way overpriced. But, that is only my opinion which we all have! I just can not fathom the thought of spending so much more on a fine Jamaican rum to get the same results from many $30 bottles from all around the world. I totally agree with your fact that time does improve many things including rum. This is probably what I've noticed and that's why I started this discussion. And, as you've stated about the similarities with coffe it does make one suspicious and that is another reason why I started this thread. Thanks for your interest and by all means continue to enjoy the Jamaican styles of rum! I will forgo this and continue my worldwide pursuit! Thanks breaux!

vomi1011 avatar image
vomi1011 🇩🇪 | 402 ratings Replied 26 Jan '22

You mean Hampden when you talk about overpriced Jamaican rum? Yes, the prices have risen sharply in recent years. 

The special thing about Jamaica rum are the fruit flavors (high esthers), these are created by a long fermentation of up to two or three weeks. Such long fermentation is expensive and was done for the flavor industry.

Carboxylic acid and a certain type of alcohol are produced, resulting in different types of very concentrated fruit aromas. A bottle of Hampden C<>H lasts forever because each drop causes an incredible fruit explosion on the tongue. The price is justified by the small consumption and the intense flavor. You just have to stop the evaporation of alcohol in the bottle, otherwise you will be left with too much acidity.

Because the rum is so intense, the flavors from the wood are lost in it. To me, this is the only rum that can be stored for more than 30 years without overaging. This bottle of Hampden high ester rum is available in the US:https://www.totalwine.com/spirits/rum/aged-rum/stolen-overproof-rum/p/192678375

There are not many distilleries that do this. Just because a few crazy rum drinkers had to drink it neat, the rum came on the market in small quantities. Now it has become popular and many want to drink high esther rum from Hampden, NY, WP.

KE
Kevin 🇺🇸 | 78 ratings Author Replied 26 Jan '22

Vomi, I've tried the Panation OFTD, recommended by Paul B, and enjoyed it. I had stopped consuming any overproof rum because of severe hangovers but the OFTD didn't go there. I will try your recommendation if I can find it locally even though I cringe when drinking Jamaican rum. I will under your advice try this particular rum. The high cost and undesirable results I've had is mainly from Appleton. I had purchased a rather expensive bottle and was very disappointed with them expecting so much more from such a reputable distiller. This purchase had me convinced that they overpriced (gouge) the market for profit! Which I do believe they do. As Sony did with their TV's Appleton does with their rums. I now notice Bacardi has caught onto the Appleton pricing practices and have come out with way overpriced bottlings themselves. Another brand I don't go near!

 

vomi1011 avatar image
vomi1011 🇩🇪 | 402 ratings Replied 27 Jan '22

Appleton 12 is not bad for the price but Appleton does not produce high ester rum. Funky rum is more likely to be found at Hampden.

Even if you don't like it, it's good to know how it tastes and why it's expensive.

KE
Kevin 🇺🇸 | 78 ratings Author Replied 28 Jan '22

Vomi, I have had enough expensive experimenting with Appleton and will not revisit. I believe there is just way to much that the world has to offer instead of depleting my well earned dollar for their product. Yes, their 12yr old is fine if I want typical Jamaican rum for $40 but with so much out there, at that price level, I'll go swimming before I return to that shore. I have no problem with Jamaican rum enthusiasts. I think they should, as I have, explore the world we live in. There happens to be an enormous amount of delectable rums out there at the same price level, that are very worthy! That's where I like to go, where the horizon never ends! We're not Scotch drinkers whom stay with Scotland or tequila consumers who stay with Mexico.  We are pirates and we go everywhere rum can be found and that is everywhere unlike most liquors! And, I will continue my search for Hampden but so far it's only available 700 miles from me but have faith I will endure!

OdysseusUnbound avatar image
OdysseusUnbound 🇨🇦 | 40 ratings Replied 28 Jan '22

@Kevin

 

If you've never tasted coffee notes in a single malt scotch, you haven't explored scotch enough. I'm more of a whisky guy (mainly scotch, but others too) than a rum guy and coffee/cocoa notes are frequently found in scotch. Laphroaig Quarter Cask is a heavily peated/smoky whisky that finishes strong on cocoa and espresso to my palate. But to the uninitiated, Laphroaig may be too smoky and medicinal. It happens to be my favourite distillery (along side Lagavulin and Springbank) so take my opinion as just that; an opinion. I'm having fun exploring rum, but I don't support dishonest producers with my dollars so no Dictador or Zacapa for me....but again, that's just me.

vomi1011 avatar image
vomi1011 🇩🇪 | 402 ratings Replied 28 Jan '22

@Kevin

I wouldn't primarily look at others and judge them. Preference for certain rums is a matter of experience and understanding. You may come back to certain rums because you didn't understand them right away. 

If you have tasted all the distilleries from Jamaica and their marks, including knowing all the vintages, then you may know enough about the flavors of Jamaican rum. If you also know the history behind all the distilleries, then you have a comprehensive picture of Jamaica rum.

Rum can be classified. The range of rum is not infinite, I think you can try through and understand most of it in about 2-3 years (you are then at about 1000 Rums). I suspect the range of whisky is wider. That has to do with the fact that high-quality rum has only had its breakthrough in the last decade.

KE
Kevin 🇺🇸 | 78 ratings Author Replied 28 Jan '22

Vomi, I agree with you. It's been a while so maybe I will give Jamaican rum another go and see what I think. The rum world is, in my opinion, a vast and wonderful world to dive into and I always look forward to trying new ones.

KE
Kevin 🇺🇸 | 78 ratings Author Replied 28 Jan '22

Odyssues, I have never tasted any coffee notes in Scotch but that was 30yrs ago when Scotch was my thing. Lagavulin at that time was my favorite but still didn't notice any coffee notes. Then again I didn't notice any coffee notes in rum back then as I do now. That's why I started this thread. As I read through this thread I can see how far all liquor has come in the last 30yrs. And look forward to what the next 30 will bring. Cheers!

Anthony C avatar image
Anthony C 🇺🇸 | 236 ratings Replied 2 Feb '22