How much aging in charred oak barrels is too much?


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Paul B avatar image
Paul B πŸ‡ΊπŸ‡Έ | 472 ratings Author Posted 1 Feb '21

I recently tried Ak Zanj, which is a Haitian clairn/agricole aged in ex-cognac barrels for 8 years. At first, it threw me for a loop because the unaged white clairin had more character. Then after sipping from a snifter of Bacardi 16 Year, I then followed it up with the Ak Zanj. The Bacardi 16 Year had lots of charred oak barrel flavors, but the Ak Zanj had absolutely none. I generally do not like too much of the charred oak barrel flavors, and this goes all the way back to my bourbon drinking days when we all knew about the dreaded phrase, "too long in the wood" (which also winds up costing us buyers more!). Any comments?
KU
kudzey πŸ‡΅πŸ‡± | 38 ratings Replied 1 Feb '21

Actually I've never experienced that aging is too long. The oldest rum I had was 20yo though (there was also one 23yo but it doesn't count) and for me the longer on the barrel the better. The oldest rum I've heard of is Long Pond Gordon&MacPhail which is 58yo, has anyone heard of any older?
Mr. Rumantic avatar image
Mr. Rumantic πŸ‡©πŸ‡ͺ | 296 ratings Replied 1 Feb '21

I think there are rums that benefit from strong barrel notes. Charred oak barrels are mostly used i guess. But there are also rums with a very unique flavors that can be destroyed. Like Jamaica rums or Agricole. Aging and the topic "Rum Finish" in special barrels is a interessting topic. Many different philosophies out there. And good barrels are less available and expansive. @ Paul: I guess the Black Sheriff from HSE is a hard one for you. πŸ˜‰ I follow your topic about white rum. Still a road i have to/ want to go. But still not sure where to start. Sipping not mixing.
Paul B avatar image
Paul B πŸ‡ΊπŸ‡Έ | 472 ratings Author Replied 1 Feb '21

kudzey: 58 years is an awful long time for a rum to age in the barrel. That is the oldest one that I have ever heard of. Mr Rumantic: I read many of the reviews on HSE Black Sheriff and that would be way too much charred oak for my tastes. I also cannot even get it where I live or within several hundred miles. As for where to start with white rums that are molasses based, Selvarey White was created for sipping neat. One of the owners is pop star Bruno Mars. He and the rest of his team spent two years searching all over the Caribbean for the perfect white rum until they wound up in Panama and hooked up with the legendary Don Pancho. When the Sevalrey was first released, I did a side by side taste test against the best white rum at the time, Cana Brava 3 Year. There is definitely some of that Cana Brava 3 Year in the Selvarey White, and both were created by Don Pancho. The Cana Brava is no longer available. Both are the closest I could get to authentic Cuban style white rums. Choosing the wrong white rum that is not Cuban style is one sure way to screw up the Cuban Daiquiri.
Mr. Rumantic avatar image
Mr. Rumantic πŸ‡©πŸ‡ͺ | 296 ratings Replied 1 Feb '21

Thanks Paul. The Selvarey White is available here. I will check it out. πŸ‘ŒπŸ₯ƒ
vomi1011 avatar image
vomi1011 πŸ‡©πŸ‡ͺ | 403 ratings Replied 1 Feb '21

https://www.thewhiskycask.de/shpSR.php?A=6018&p1=461&p2=474 https://www.rumundco.de/flensburg-rum-company-guyana-kfm-1991-07l We had two oldies last year in Germany. There was also a discussion about how old a rum should be aged. Both have lost complexity on the palet. The nose remained still great. I think a rum should be aged for a maximum of 25-27 years. The most rums around 16y of tropical aging are also great. They develop heavy aromas and enough complexity from that age. But it also depends on the size of the cask, because aging in smaller casks goes faster.
KU
kudzey πŸ‡΅πŸ‡± | 38 ratings Replied 3 Feb '21

What's the oldest rum you would recommend therefore? I'd like to have a reference level. The XOs from Dictador are said to be 25-35 yo (no idea if this is Solera or not). There are also some expensive and old Demerara or Caroni rums, aged over 30 years, as well as 35yo Kill Devil Hampden. By any chance, could these rums have been better if bottled earlier?
vomi1011 avatar image
vomi1011 πŸ‡©πŸ‡ͺ | 403 ratings Replied 3 Feb '21

Depends on the rum, barrel and climate. Hampden can be aged for longer than 35 years without absorbing too much wood. Some Caronis are overaged with 23 years. Dictador was solera aged, it was not too old from the taste. I like the 14-16y old stuff in terms of price, value and taste.
KU
kudzey πŸ‡΅πŸ‡± | 38 ratings Replied 3 Feb '21

I'm just curious why Hampden absorbs less wood, while the others get overage. Is it related to the cask type or climate?
vomi1011 avatar image
vomi1011 πŸ‡©πŸ‡ͺ | 403 ratings Replied 3 Feb '21

It's related to it's high ester profile. It covers everything with its fruit flavors. I read yesterday about Dictador 1982, it's still spicy after 33 years (spicy and peppery, dark chocolate and some wood). It sounds like it can be matured for a longer time.
Rene Rum avatar image
Rene Rum (PREMIUM) πŸ‡¨πŸ‡­ | 547 ratings Replied 3 Feb '21

Difficult topic, I think it's like vomi1011 mention, depend on rum, climate and barrel. I tried some long-matured rum like the legendary Bristol Classic 1974 Caroni who has been 34 years in the barrel or the Domaine de Courcelles 1972 with his 38 years. Both are well balanced and really fruity, the wood does not dominate. I tried rums with far less ageing and they taste like you have a piece of wood in your mouth (sorry don't remember which) or such matured in charred oak barrel like the Cashcane Black Smoke, it's too much taste like a bonfire. Special barrel finish very tasty, if they do it right. Great one: Rhum JM Calvados Cask Finish or Artesano rum (Panama refined in Germany) Bad one: Abuelo Oloroso Sherry Cask 15-Year, taste like cat-pipi (problem: they use dry casks and not wet ones)
KA
Kamamura πŸ‡¨πŸ‡Ώ | 37 ratings Replied 8 Feb '21

Looking for a generic answer does not seem to make much sense. What people seem to forget is the fact that tropical aging is about twice faster than continental aging, which already creates a significant spread. A rum aged on Barbados for five years may have similar cask influence as a rum aged in England for 10 years. I have noticed Jamaican-style Plummer and Wedderburn high-ester rum (same stock) aged both continental and tropical way, 11 and 14 years expressions side by side for comparison. Both color and flavor differentiated substantially. Then there is the material of the barrel. Is it American or French oak? Or any other wood? Is it used cask, or a fresh one? Since the Bourbon industry regulations require the producers to use only new casks, there is a huge supply of used bourbon barrels, so you can observe that vast majority of rums use ex-bourbon casks. How long has been such a cask used? 4 years, or 12? There are certain chemicals, like the vanilla notes or wood sugars that gets washed out of a cask, never to come back. Cheap rums aged in very old casks have that tired, "teabag left in for too long", bitter, tannin-heavy after-taste. To sum it up, there can be so many other variables that can either slow down or accelerate (or even alter) the maturation process that the simple question "how long?" may not be able to provide a sensible answer.